(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hello and welcome to Community and University, the
MSU Center for Community and Economic Development podcast
aimed at providing outreach to both community members
and students throughout the state of Michigan.
I am Heather Mahoney and I'm the producer
for Community and University.
Today on Community and University we have Bob
Brown, director of the Flint Center for Community
and Economic Development, interviewing Pastor Tommy, a citizen
in Flint who assists in running the help
center that operates out of the church he
serves.
So this is Bob Brown from the Center
for Community and Economic Development in Flint and
today I'm talking with Pastor Tommy who is
at Asbury United Methodist Church that is one
of our help centers in the community that's
responding to our ongoing water and mud crisis
and I wonder if you might start by
telling us a little bit about the help
centers, the history of your help center, it
got closed down and then it's reopened.
If you could trace a little bit of
that for us.
So the three help centers was a community
partner response to a way that we could
make not just bottled water but other human
necessities available to the public.
So it began there and we ultimately had
plans for six locations so that we could
cover the city well, north, south, east, west,
and in between and we were able to
raise sufficient funding that we were able to
open three of the six and the idea
was to provide food that through a nutritional
basis had been, I'll call it, prescribed by
health professionals that contain the nutrients that our
bodies need to be able to mitigate to
an extent the negative impact of lead and
that I talk about that because for us
at Asbury that has been our focus as
we try to shift to the extent we
can from a crisis approach, an emergency response,
to a longer-term response which will be
required over the next couple of generations.
The help centers then were what we call
point of car.
It means cars drive through the parking lot
and we put the groceries and bottled water
into the vehicle and they do have the
option, have had the option of pulling over
and parking in our parking lot and going
inside and in the past we've provided personal
items and other water related resources like filter
cartridges, zero pitchers for a while and as
the funding began to run out and the
funding is quite complicated in its own right
in the sense that the state of Michigan
was providing the budget for food.
Through a Department of Labor grant, Work Alliance
or Michigan Works was providing the labor that
was there on a consistent basis and the
bottled water then was also budgeted separately and
that came through a state allocated budget and
we essentially ran out of money.
The Department of Labor grant was coming to
an end.
Apparently the water crisis was beginning to be
declared over and the water was improving at
least the tests that they were holding dear
to and so we closed down but that
was the basic idea.
I call it somewhat, it's not intended to
be negative, but a superficial relationship.
The kind you have you know when you
go through McDonald's and pick up your your
order as opposed to a relationship where your
able to help our residents and point them
to our other services.
I will say though particularly Genesee Health Systems
but a number of different organizations would stand
out there and greet the people waiting in
line and ask questions and do surveys and
try to give them at least the information
that they needed and I think people really
appreciated that.
So you were open four or five days
a week?
We were open Monday through Thursday four days
a week and we opened at 10 a
.m. and we were open until 4 30
p.m. And in this new revised way
of doing it without those streams of funding
and without those streams of labor support what's
the structure like now?
Okay so we reopened after being closed for
a two to three weeks.
We scrambled because we we kind of knew
it was coming but at the same time
what we also didn't know was what was
going to happen with state funding in particular.
And so we reopened but at this point
we have one day a week and for
Asbury it's on Tuesdays but there's also Bethel
Methodist Church on Mondays and Greater Holy Temple
on Thursdays.
Our hours are a bit shorter.
We open at 10 a.m. still but
we close at 2 p.m. and so
the one day a week and each of
three health centers West Side, North Side, and
East Side.
The other big difference is the bottle of
water that that was not advertised as being
available because nobody knew if indeed that was
going to be available.
Right so the reality is that we were
anticipating and we were told not to anticipate
bottled water and lo and behold Tuesday morning
a truck shows up full of cases of
water.
Well I say full of cases of water
we so we don't know how much water
is going to come and we did say
and and I remember one of my peers,
Greg Timmons, telling the channel 12 that we
don't know.
Water would be available as we could make
it available and so the reason Greg said
that's the same reason I would have said
that and and that is we we've had
offers, we've had calls from around the country
with people wanting to know what they do
and providing bottled water has been the one
of the calls that people have made and
and so it'll be on a limited basis
but what we have to do is sort
of assess okay how much do we have
how many cases divided by roughly 325 and
say okay we can give one, two, three
cases to each vehicle and that is a
huge change over families that had larger needs
being able to leave our premise with you
know six to twelve cases of water as
it might as they might need.
So this past Tuesday was your reopening.
Yes.
So what was that day like?
Hectic but organized hectic.
You know we sort of suspected we would
see long lines and these were long lines.
You know when you're open four days a
week people sort of get into a pattern
and and our crew was efficient enough that
we seldom had vehicles backed up on the
main road and and yet we served hundreds
of vehicles each day that we were open
but you compress the hours, you compress the
days and you scare the dickens out of
everybody with a last-minute bomb drop that
you're no longer going to provide water and
guess what they show up and so an
hour before we were open traffic was backed
up on the main road way down several
blocks.
Yeah on Thursday I went to Greater Holy
Temple and the experience there was identical.
Yeah.
They were lined up out of the driveway
down the major highway that they're located on
probably two or three blocks.
There could have been a hundred cars in
line waiting to get in.
Right.
It's very very busy and I know that
this might be a guessing your part because
you're not actually in the parking lot doing
the actual distribution but did you run out
of water or did you have enough water?
What did it seem like?
Well we we knew we would run out
of commodities before the lines stopped.
There's no doubt about that.
We had an idea ahead of time of
how many cases.
We know that the the food that were
provided and what's called a nutrition truck has
been designed to for 325 vehicles to each
get their bag of food and their potatoes
and so forth and so we did the
same thing with cases of water.
So did we run out of water?
Well yes but we also ran out of
food.
In in our particular case I guess the
good news is we've been doing this long
enough now we feel that we're our staff
is quite proficient but still people were coming
by and they do come by they come
by every day and they're you know what
and they're not mean they're not you know
upset with us they're just simply you know
what can I do and when we explain
to them when the other help centers are
open they're they're appreciative and that has been
a pleasant surprise because you know there's a
lot of anxiety and but the good news
is I think all of the churches not
just are the three health centers but other
churches have built good long-term lasting relationships
with our neighbors and they know we're in
this together.
So you are also the largest site that
delivered to homebound folks, delivered water to homebound
folks.
What's happening to that?
Well that's a bigger mystery you know the
the part I suppose is not a mystery
is that the warehouse is going to be
empty and we're going to run out of
water and we are not going to hold
on to our staff beyond when there are
means to pay for those staff.
We have maintained a fleet of three box
trucks I mean three commercial trucks and in
our best days we had three people in
each truck so we had a staff of
nine and they were able to deliver to
around 1,100 households a week and our
total distribution is about 1,400 different households
so some households would be delivered to less
than once a week some really needed to
have deliveries every week and they would take
the water up and put it on the
kitchen table or on the kitchen floor whatever
the families needed but in addition to that
it's one of the things that was very
heartwarming is the these crews built relationships with
the families they were serving.
The families were very seldom was there ever
an issue and they knew that if they
if they didn't get water something happened they
were at a doctor's appointment or something that
you know they wouldn't get forgotten so what's
going to happen to that well if we
if we listen to the to the political
pundits we what's going to happen to that
we're not going to do it anymore we're
not going to have the resources these trucks
are quite expensive they use a lot of
fuel and volunteers can do this for a
few days but not for months and those
are the most vulnerable of the families they
tend to be a group that struggles with
you know if they have mobility issues trying
to know how to change their filter and
their and their sink they have you know
they're sort of at the mercy of those
of us who are healthy enough and mobile
enough that we can bring them what they
need.
So what was the reaction of the crews
they had built relationships with these families and
then suddenly they had to stop and it
was very suddenly and then with the ponds
closing down also all water just stopped.
Yeah there's a lot of pressure all the
way around well it varies quite a bit
I mean in general they my sense is
they have loved their jobs and it was
a better job I think than they ever
expected it to be in terms of how
rewarding it was but all along there seemed
to be this understanding well this is only
temporary we're going to do what we can
while we can do it and we did
what we could to encourage them to seek
full-time employment in other places you know
offered to provide references whatever they would need
because we knew it was going to be
temporary we would rather it not be as
temporary as it is because we still have
a water problem it's just that at this
point and I don't want to say the
world has decided you know get over it
what I'm saying at this point is the
the people who should be held accountable seems
to be the ones that are not holding
themselves accountable whereas many people around the country
and around the world you know when they
learn it's not over number one they're not
shocked and number two they they presume that
we're still getting help and when they find
out we're not many of them offer to
help.
So along that line what was your reaction
on this past Monday when our mayor met
with the governor and within a matter of
minutes according to her his statement to her
was you all just need to get over
it and move beyond it.
I'd like to say my reaction was disbelief
but it's unfortunately not we we find ourselves
in a kind of a new way of
being in the world with our leaders led
by the one in the White House who
you're allowed to tweet anything that happens to
come to your mind at any time of
the hour or night.
The good news is we kind of know
what they're made of and we kind of
know what their ethics and their morals are.
The bad news is they're in office and
they seem to have a lot of influence
over lives that you know I'm sort of
angry with us the public.
Yeah.
You know and we live in a democracy
and we get that kind of power to
people that are going to say things and
mean them why don't you just get over
it and that perhaps is what is pervasive
at this point throughout the country.
That whole aspect of democracy and many people
might not remember this but this crisis occurred
when the democracy of this city was stripped
away from us.
Absolutely.
And we had no voice in decisions that
were being made that affected us.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I had the pleasure I guess the honor
of participating and this was a church discussion
but we were looking at issuing a resolution
that would condemn the ability of government to
do that to take away that kind of
power and I found myself being first of
all the only one from Flint and second
of all you know in a room full
of people that saw no reason why we
should be putting forth a resolution that says
you know that we disagree with this.
Yeah.
And the good news is I'll tell you
by the time we finished the debate the
resolution passed and so what that meant was
our bishop was asked to weigh in on
this conversation and say at least the members
of the United Methodist Church who live in
Michigan have determined that we believe that this
is a an ability to take away government
that you shouldn't have and so we've asked
our members to stand up in opposition to
that.
Doesn't mean they will.
We all have free will and this is
not a we also have a democracy and
so it may not be that way but
I feel good about at least being able
to have the conversation.
I want to turn our conversation a little
bit to another area and I'm going to
use my house and my family as an
example.
So we tested really high for lead.
Anything over 15 parts per billion according to
the government is bad.
Anything over zero parts according to the scientists
and doctors are bad.
Right.
There's no level of lead that's a good
thing.
Right.
And we tested at 200 parts per billion
in our house.
I was able to change all the pipes.
I have two whole house filters.
We're down to testing at zero and I
still can't bring myself to drink out of
a tap.
Right.
So this that trauma that psychological trauma that's
still sitting there even though I've had the
money to replace everything.
Most people in Flint don't have that option.
How long do you think that that trauma
is gonna persist and that's the the key
issue right now even if the pipes are
okay the trauma is still here.
Right.
Yeah.
So I've hurt you and and potentially damaged
you for the only your life but your
children's life and and you know you should
get over that trauma I guess is what
we're talking about and how long will that
trauma last if we don't get over it
right away.
You know it's there's a number of things
at play here and I first of all
my own personal sense of this is that
not only do you do you deserve if
you will to be able to have the
emotions that you have and the rest of
us have but it might be wise to
have that level of skepticism.
You know you and I are relative insiders
and we know that you know not all
is well with the world and in the
world of Flint in the world of water
there are still questions about chlorine levels for
example and therefore questions about bacteria that can't
necessarily be taken out by the filters that
we tend to use in our homes.
Asbury runs a commercial urban farm and we're
working with Kettering on a project to harvest
water so the water catchment systems and we
know that we need to filter that water
we can't the food safety laws on the
farm are similar to what they are in
the kitchen you know with the new act
that went into effect into law this year
and which by the way I think is
a good law and so we need to
test our water and whether we use Flint
city water or we use water that we
catch but we're looking at technology to make
sure there's no bacteria in the water so
when our harvesters wash their hands before they
harvest spinach or lettuce we want that water
to be free of bacteria.
You know I think it's wise because we
have this water infrastructure that clearly is a
problem and we have an infrastructure that was
built for you know maybe 300,000 is
the number I've heard and we have a
hundred thousand or less residents and we have
more and more homes that are being abandoned
and the water connections to the water system
are being cut off and therefore there is
a great deal of reason to be skeptical
of tap water.
It seems like if you came into this
so let's say I just moved to Flint
and I knew Flint had a water problem
and there's people that have moved to Flint
believe it or not and recently into our
neighborhood and they understand the water situation I
come into it I know what I'm getting
myself into right I know I can't trust
the water and I think in that case
because this happened to me when my family
moved to Massachusetts you know we build a
new house and we immediately put a whole
house filtration system in it.
Why?
Because we knew the water was crap and
so we didn't I didn't want my and
guess what I wouldn't drink the water and
I wouldn't let my children drink the water
even though we had a whole house filtration
system but the company that put it in
you know challenged me they tested the water
in my water bottle because we were buying
bottled water and this goes back my children
were like in preschool and the bottled water
tested worse than the water we were drinking
out of our taps that had been filtered
but I knew what I was getting into
you know and but even then I wanted
to drink and it took me a while
even though I saw the scientific evidence yeah
and no one had tried to fool me
and say my water was good and I
drink it and I you know smelled it
and it looked bad and it tasted bad
and they kept telling me it's okay you
know maybe they said then get over it
but I you know you I don't blame
you I think it will be I think
it will be maybe a generation but hopefully
not where we can and a lot of
it will have to do with you know
I start trusting you start trusting and then
someone else starts trusting and they say well
you know they seem to be all right
with it maybe it's time that we began
to deal with with trust so yeah the
the insidious part of it for me and
my house was the water never was colored
the water never smelled it always looked absolutely
normal right so and then it came back
no you're really poisoned yeah and all the
guilt that goes along with that oh my
god why didn't I do something sooner right
right yeah you were oh well it looks
good to me yeah nothing's changed yeah and
some of us chose denial over you know
feeling guilty yeah but whatever way we cope
with it insidious a good way to describe
it even if it's not intentional it still
is the reality it is you know and
I'm you know maybe because of my vocation
I'm not one for going and trying to
prosecute people and determine what was their intention
but at the same time the reality is
what it is and the fact that we
now we've had that done to us and
those who were the doers are suggesting that
not only should they're done helping but you
know we should get over the fact that
you know that they ever did that to
begin with pretend like it never happened right
that seems ludicrous but I'm not surprised unfortunately
because of the climate of the political landscape
that we're yeah and I would totally agree
with that on a very positive note in
spite of all of this that was done
to us and there are some who even
say in spite of this criminal act that
was done to us the resiliency of the
people of this community is remarkable oh yes
I I think we we have seen that
people are capable in a very positive way
of doing much more than I ever imagined
they were capable of doing yep and so
I and again maybe it's my vocational hazard
but I look for the positive outcomes even
in the face of disaster and if I
were going and so I'm always looking for
that and I'm saying okay so here's one
thing that's happened we lived in a very
disconnected neighborhood no one trusted each other people
were always afraid that if they leave their
house their gonna break into their house very
early into the water crisis we're delivering water
door-to-door trying to find out where
because we didn't know who couldn't come out
and get water early on we didn't know
who the folks are that we're now delivering
water to and so we're knocking on doors
and we have neighbors saying you know I'm
okay which was already unusual you know I've
got I'm here with something free and you're
turning it down that was a good start
and the second is could you check on
the lady the man the person across the
street down the road a ways I noticed
that it looked like they wouldn't be capable
of getting water and I just am concerned
about them I I didn't think I would
ever hear that in our community at least
you know when I first began pastoring here
because I felt that was the number one
problem we had we were disconnected we hadn't
yet realized that my well-being depends on
your well-being and your well-being depends
on mine yeah and so I would be
you know right I wouldn't be doing my
job if I didn't quote scripture but there's
something in Jeremiah that says to work for
the prosperity of the city where I put
you yes and I believe that that comes
full circle well I appreciate you taking some
time this afternoon to to talk with me
about our I hate to say ventures but
our trials and tribulations of the last four
years as we've dealt with this in our
community my pleasure thank you for having me
thanks again to Bob Brown and to our
guest pastor Tom and thank you for listening
this has been Community and University from the
Center for Community and Economic Development