(Transcribed by TurboScribe.ai. Go Unlimited to remove this message.) Hello, and welcome to Community and University, the
MSU Center for Community and Economic Development podcast,
aimed at providing outreach to both community members
in our Lansing and surrounding communities, as well
as students at Michigan State University.
I'm Heather Mahoney, and I'm the producer for
Community and University.
Today on our podcast, we have Rita Fields,
an REI Innovation Fellow, doing a research project
on underground economics in the Detroit area.
So, I'm Rex LaMoure, here with the Center
for Community and Economic Development at Michigan State
University, and joining me in our podcast today
is...
Jennifer Bruin, project manager of the REI University
Center, who's also a Center for Community and
Economic Development.
And our guest is Dr. Rita Fields, who
is a recently designated Innovation Fellow here at
the Center, and she's doing some exciting work
on the underground economy here in Michigan.
And so, Rita, welcome.
Thank you for joining us today.
Tell us a little bit about what you
think is the underground economy, and why it's
an important thing to look at as far
as economic development.
Yeah, so I'm really excited about this topic.
The underground economy, in my own definition, would
be the group of individuals...
I'm specifically focusing my work on individuals in
the city of Detroit who have had businesses,
sometimes for many years, but who are not
part of what would be considered the traditional
entrepreneurial mainframe, so to speak.
They may be off the grid in terms
of receiving payment by cash.
They may operate these businesses out of their
homes, but they have not gone through the
traditional means of establishing their businesses, having bank
accounts, having records of their dealings.
And so that's just the way that I've
come to describe them.
So my focus will be on that topic.
And your vision is really to try to
help us understand the underground economy in our
communities, and then how we might, if appropriate,
move it, I don't know if this is
the right phrase, above ground or into the
more other economy?
Yeah, you know, so that's interesting.
My dissertation taught me to be very sensitive
and aware of language.
And so using the phrase above ground, I'm
interested in, but there's an asterisk there.
I'm not quite sure if that's what I'll
find out.
I think that's the beauty of research.
I would really be interested in learning the
advantages, the challenges, if that's something that is
attractive.
If it's not attractive, why is that?
I know of a number of individuals who
happen to be in this particular segment of
our economy, and they've taken care of themselves
very well.
And so when we talk about moving above
ground, we have to figure out what the
value proposition is for individuals to determine that
going above ground, air quotes at it, would
be beneficial to them, to their business, that
it would not be detrimental in the furthering
of their entrepreneurial mindset.
And so I'd really love to learn more
about what that means.
You've been selected to be an Innovation Fellow
for our REI, Regional Economic Innovation Center.
Innovation Fellows are individuals, practitioners, thinkers, and doers
who are out there helping communities think about
and adopt new technologies, new methods, new ways
to create wealth and opportunity within distressed areas.
Why do you think this topic of the
underground economy would be of interest to community
and economic development professionals in Michigan?
Oh, my gosh.
Well, I've sort of tossed the idea around
with some of my friends that are in
the space, and they're very passionate about it,
very interested in it.
I have a fairly close relationship with the
BUILD Institute specifically, and we had lengthy conversations
about this topic.
There's a lot of acknowledgement of the fact
that it is definitely a challenge for economic
developers to try to marry the really solid
businesses that are often represented in the underground
economy with a lot of the existing and
emerging programs that are incredibly beneficial to be
attached to, but also have a number of
restrictions and regulations that can be sticky at
times for people who have perhaps had an
underground business for, say, the last ten years,
but they don't have tax records of that
business, but they understand their market, they understand
their customer, they've engaged in all sorts of
improvements in terms of how they deliver their
product, but they either were not aware of
the many opportunities that are available to entrepreneurs
and or felt that for whatever reason they
were not able to avail themselves of those
opportunities, and so they have been relegated to
operating their businesses in a way that they
see fit, and that happens to be off
the books.
So I think it's going to be pretty
fascinating, actually.
I'm very excited about it.
I'm very excited about learning, about highlighting, for
instance, the economic developers in the area who
actually do acknowledge underground economy workers, that they're
trying to incorporate them better into the fold,
but they're still having challenges.
Build Institute would definitely be one of those
partners for sure, and there are several others.
I've talked to people at the City of
Detroit also, and there's just a lot of
energy resonating around what this could potentially mean.
So I'm really excited about the possibilities.
With the sharing economy, all the big kinds
of jobs, I know some of these platforms
are tracking the income or tracking maybe tax
-related.
Are you familiar with how maybe that emerging
economy is making the underground economy that much
more appealing?
Yeah, that's a great question.
I have no idea, but when I research,
I'm going to remember that question, Jen, and
I'm going to investigate that.
I think that the gig economy, which I
am also incredibly enamored of and also I'm
a part of, I work full-time and
I have a number of gigs because I
really am drawn to work that resonates with
me in terms of meaningfulness, is incredibly attractive,
but it's been thought of as being an
option for individuals who are not, air quote,
or emphasis added again, below ground.
It's for individuals who are your 1099, which
is a completely legitimate way to do business,
but it's not W-2.
It's not just pay me $20 and I'll
come and meet you and make you a
pie.
That's a different scenario.
I would love to find out.
I imagine that a lot of these businesses,
at least the ones that I'm aware of,
are side gigs, so they absolutely would be
a part of the gig economy, but I'm
not sure if even the entrepreneurs who are
a part of this particular segment would even
recognize it as being a segment that they're
also a part of, so I'd love to
explore that and find out how they define
what this means for them.
Why is this a particularly appropriate strategy for
those of us who are concerned about distressed
areas?
Any thoughts in your mind about that, Dr.
Fields?
Oh, wow.
I think it has to do with employability.
Yes, well, there's employability.
I also think that it's really important for
us to understand in the economic development space
exactly what's going on, and to be able
to deal with our community in totality as
opposed to just segments, or sometimes it almost
seems as though there's this, I don't want
to say willingness, but this default assumption to
sort of skim the cream off of the
top of individuals who maybe are perfectly packaged,
and they have ideas that go through and
there aren't a lot of hitches, and they
happen to also have excellent credit, and they
are able to open bank accounts and do
things that traditional entrepreneurs are able to do
successfully, and then they turn into great hits,
and that's great.
But I also think that if we want
to operate from a position of strength and
truthfulness, we have to acknowledge the fact that
there are components of our society who are
maybe not as involved in that understanding of
our community and what it means.
And so I think that when we talk
about how effective we are at building our
community and or rebuilding certain segments of our
community, we have to be able to say
that with at least a deeper level of
certainty that we're being as inclusive as possible.
And so that's why I think this is
a really important topic.
You've started your own consulting.
Yes.
Okay.
And can you explain how that's going to
work?
You said you have a gig.
Yeah.
So I'm sort of weird.
I'm a professor, and I have my own
consulting business, which would be a part of
the gig economy.
I'm also the CEO of a manufacturing business
also.
So I have a number of gigs.
And so I am definitely someone who I
think is qualified to be in this space,
and I've been able to connect with individuals
who are in this space very successfully and
have so much respect for their work.
And so I'm hoping that this work adds
to that, that it is able to allow
them to think of things that are even
more innovative, more thoughtful, that allows them to
always be inclusive so that we can involve
more people in the revitalization of the city
of Detroit.
And so, yes, I am a member.
I don't have any underground businesses, but I
did when I was young.
I sold candy in the second grade fairly
successfully, but I unfortunately did not report that
to the IRS.
So I have a bit of experience, but
not as much as some of the other
individuals.
I say that very facetiously.
I'm only kidding.
But I'm really excited about this work.
Yes, anything else you'd like to share with
our podcast listeners?
Oh, nothing.
Just stay tuned for the research as it
continues to develop.
We're hoping to be able to share it
in maybe some public spaces with some other
like-minded individuals.
And maybe allow it to grow and expand
into something that's even beyond what we're dreaming
of at this time.
So thank you for your support.
Thank you, and we're looking forward.
You'll be joining us at our summit this
fall?
Yes.
September 6th at Kellogg Center as an Innovation
Fellow.
You'll be sharing with us your progress to
date.
Yay.
That's exciting, and we thank you for your
leadership and support in this effort.
I'd like to thank Ms. Mahoney, who is
our technical advisor here in our podcast for
making this possible for us to use this
method to get the word out about these
kind of innovative tools, models, policies, and programs
in community and economic development.
And Ms. Warren, of course, our guest today,
Dr. Fields.
So join us again at a future podcast.
Thanks again to our guest Rita Fields, and
thank you for listening.
Stay tuned for more episodes of Community and
University from MSU's Center for Community and Economic
Development on other innovative economic, community, and university
work.